Difference between revisions of "Talk:Drops"

Revision as of 10:34, 3 December 2006

• Humm, is it appropriate to add in what we get from boxes? My apologies if this isn't interesting.

--JPD002 16:24, 7 September 2006 (PDT)

• Sure it is. On a sidenote, I've been wondering lately if the drop system wouldn't be more like WoW's; having a number of drops manually set for all monsters, rather than just randomly distributing all but 'rare' drops. By the way, I've also heard rumours that the drops would be different for online and offline modes. - Tycho
• I'm pretty sure drops are completely different between Offline and Online Modes. Try playing them and see, even non-rare drops are COMPLETELY different. In offline, you cannot find elemental photons (or they're very rare!), Photon Chargers are pretty plentiful, Meseta is through the roof. Just a few of the differences I found. Mewn 08:26, 8 September 2006 (PDT)
• I concur about the drops differing in offline and online modes. I think some rares in offline mode might be dropping always at the same place because they drop at a very convenient place (dead-end room with a box protected by a laser fence for example). In chapter 7, I found the "Real Handgun" in such a room and I saw some more instances of that in chapter 12. I didn't try replaying these chapters though, so it's just a theory... JPD002 22:10, 8 September 2006 (PDT)
• I found in Chapter, um, 10 I think (the one with frozen Kokura Temple) that a group of boxes always seem to drop rare boards - I found Board/Death Dancer, Board/Bullet Master, and Board/Gran Rodou from them. Mewn 12:24, 9 September 2006 (PDT)
  • I think drops from some boxes in the online missions might work the same way too. There's only one set of boxes in the Relics (ruins) mission that will drop Nano Silica and Nano Carbon, one set of boxes in the dragon mission that will often drop Sunflowers, a set of boxes that will drop the lantern thing often in the shrine mission almost at the end, etc. Might be interesting to have the maps of the missions blocks and point out where you can find some specific items. JPD002 16:39, 16 September 2006 (PDT)
• I've gotten enough staves from Polavolha to be convinced that he pretty much only drops that weapon. Gotten 5 in total from this mob and he has never dropped any other weapon.
  • I agree. I've got a couple of Staves from him too. Mewn
  • Yup, found a plenty from him too. JPD002 16:39, 16 September 2006 (PDT)
  • Hm, does this mean each monster only has a few set drops? Tycho
• Are we trying to catalog everything that a creature drops, or just the less-common items? --Major error 21:04, 21 November 2006 (PST)
  • Ultimately, it should be our goal to be able to be able to know of and predict each and every possible drop. - Tycho 22:16, 21 November 2006 (PST)
  • Noted. That being the case, then the section text for Drops needs to be amended to reflect that we're building a comprehensive guide--right now it implies that it is a guide for uncommon & rare items. I'm not trying to be a nit-picker, but going forward, a comprehensive drop-list is going to become unwieldy rather fast. To save on load times, I suggest breaking the page into sections by world (and mission, should the need arise), each with a separate page... If I can find enough time, I'll try to take care of it, so long as it's agreed to be necessary. --Major error 06:28, 22 November 2006 (PST)
    • No, of course; you're right. The Japanese also split up their drops actually. They used one page for the Story Missions, one for the Party Missions, and a few for the Free Missions (split up by planet), and were probably going to have one for the Offline Missions as well. I really really need to [s]plagiarize[/s] get some inspirement from their versions some time soonish, but my schedule is sort of strangling me here. Moreover, to get ahead of myself a bit, I'd also be interested in trying to set up some sort of project similar to the Thottbot tool used for WoW. Not quite there yet though, and without anything such as file decryption it doesn't even seem to be possible to mine for drop data of the offline game, so for now manually adding the data to PSU-related sites will probably have to do. DX - Tycho 10:49, 22 November 2006 (PST)
      • Took a look at the JP stuff, and while all I see are mainly ?s, it does help with formatting ideas. The two hurdles I have right now are 1) how to create a new page as an average contributor, then 2) how to work everything in so that there is some synergy with the general planet & mission sections, which includes naming conventions... Getting a crash-course on all the wiki-workings now. As for the to-do list, there's something to be said about trying to do too much, too fast. ;) --Major error 12:31, 22 November 2006 (PST)
        • Ok. Now that I understand just how simple the page creation process is, it seems this little redesign idea has already sufferd from a major case of feature- and scope-creep: Reorganizing all of the mission information all at once would be a pretty big undertaking, but would result in a leaner and easier-to-edit category. What I had in mind was breaking all the mission-related pages up into smaller bits to fit into a URL scheme: title=Missions:(planet)/(mission area)/(mission name)/(drops) Thoughts? --Major error 13:01, 22 November 2006 (PST)
• Breaking the asterisk chain, lolz. But yeah, I understand it's a bit of a hassle to figure out how the whole wiki thing works initially; took me a while as well, especially concerning the templates and the like. In any case, I think that Wikimedia's is the best 'wiki crash course' out there. As for adding new pages, there's not really any difference between regular editors (whether or not logged in) and sysops even; you get to a page either by following a red link or by manually entering the URL to a non-existant article, then just hit edit. Then you could add links on relevant pages, or just have them added to menu-like boxes like the templates used on the frontpage (which you could see/edit/vandalize at Template:Gameplay and the like).

  As for naming conventions, we probably really need to have all of the Japanese as well as English names of items and monsters added to their respective relevant articles, so as to have some functional look-up lists. The To Do page is quite outdated by the way, especially because noone but me really bothered to use it, and a lot of stuff has happened since then. As for the conventions to break up the info, I'd say we might as well go by the Japanese conventions for now, since dividing this in a handful of sub-pages would probably give the branches plenty of space for growth for a while. The Japanese conventions to split up the drop pages seem to make sense at least, in that the drops for Story/Party Missions actually appear to use a different system from the one for Story Mode. Personally, I think splitting up the page into separate sections for each Mission might be a bit overkill. Even now, all Missions do have separate edit buttons, allow for people to edit one section at a time. Having to unnecessarily click around all that much to navigate is probably too much of a hassle for regular visitors. In any case, when the time is considered to be ripe to definitely split up this article, perhaps they could be interlinked using a menu box such as is used for the Weapons article and its members. - Tycho 14:53, 22 November 2006 (PST)

  • I actually looked at the Wikipedia help to figure things out... It seems there's a minor misunderstanding of my intensions; I suppose I didn't articulate well enough, so my bad. When I mentioned naming conventions, I was referring only to the URL. I only recently started paying attention to how everything was arranged, and it doesnt look like categorization was considered at such a high level. Add to that my dislike of huge, monolithic pages. In my opinion, they're ok for search engines and e-stores, but for reference sites like this, it's just information overload. Breaking things up could also help balance server/network load--a lot of little requests are easier to churn through than really big ones. But then I'm not the brewmaster here, I only bring the ingredients ;) [When I told Ahzi I was interested in helping, this is what I had in mind.] --Major error 08:27, 23 November 2006 (PST)
• Hm. It's not like I'd mind splitting things up by Mission (although, you should realize that a lot of drops seem to be pretty much consistent throughout the Missions as if dependent only on the monster they drop off and their levels), but before that, it'd probably be best to get a flowchart with embedded links for easy navigation first (which kind of sucks to make without using images). In any case, I really don't think this site should be conservative and should only have one or two people decide about things or anything -- I mean, I try to help out, but I couldn't possibly represent the public's opinion on my own, and moreover, I don't even have time left to actually play this game. So yeah. Anyway, I'll check if I could translate these articles to English soon. - Tycho 14:23, 23 November 2006 (PST)

Table Organization

• I was wondering, in the mission tables, how are the enemies ordered, if at all? I was going to go through and re-order all the enemy rows alphabetically, because I'm anal like that. Unless there is some pattern I'm missing, or if anyone has any objections to alphabetization. --Segaholic2 15:07, 23 November 2006 (PST)
  • At first glance, the more-established tables appear to be arranged by relative creature hitpoints. I noticed a couple creatures were missing from the newer mission tables and quickly inserted them while I was playing, so I didn't take this into consideration at the time... --Major error 18:01, 23 November 2006 (PST)
  • IMO, it should be ordered from the weakest grunts to the bigger mini-mini-boss mobs through to the bosses. --JubeiSaotome 21:16, 23 November 2006 (PST)
    • The thing is with that method is that it's quite arbitrary. I myself would prefer a constant such as alphabetization, but if nobody else agrees with me then that's okay. It would just be a bit more difficult to order enemies from weakest to strongest. --Segaholic2 22:17, 23 November 2006 (PST)
      • Well, smallest to largest also determines the greater risk or the better the drops. Seeing as bigger enemies drop better items. --JubeiSaotome 22:24, 23 November 2006 (PST)
• Another random thing, the crappier materials & items that drop and are found in boxes. If they drop commonly amongst the enemies, maybe it'd be better to have a row for common items that drop in the areas? Unless they ARE specific to enemies or boxes, but it doesn't seem like it. --JubeiSaotome 22:24, 23 November 2006 (PST)
• If possible I'd prefer some sort of 'natural' order as implied by hex values or the like, but eh, I don't know them, so. Alphabetized or using order of JP drop tables seems fine to me. @Jubei: Yeah, probably. When/if we're sure. o_O - Tycho 22:55, 23 November 2006 (PST)

  Edit: um, I guess my second suggestion was kinda similar to the 'order based on HP' thing, so the comment didn't really help much. Anyway, I wonder if 'HP rankings' are necessarily the same for all difficulties.

• I've tried Creating a Universal drop label box on Rainbow Beast to remove clutter tell me what you think... This would save time to create a section at the beginning for general/ universal mob and box drops since catalysts, mates, and atomizers seem to drop off everything... -Battoh
• I'm still doubting.. It's hard to tell, since I have no clue what aspects out of ranks/planets/missions/levels actually influence these 'common drops' -- in PSO only the episode and difficulty mattered for tool items at least. I tried putting a note stating (Monomates/Photons/whatever appear everywhere!) at the top, but ehh. Anyway, until the details are known, go ahead. - Tycho 11:23, 29 November 2006 (PST)

Shit

• Well, to put it bluntly, the way we tried to tackle this matter wasn't completely off, but was quite unsufficient. In fact, the system is like this: Luck affects only 'drop anything rates'. Monsters have 'rare drops' (drop and rate depending on monster and their levels; different drops for L1~9, 10~19, 29, 30~39, 40~49, 50~59, 60~69, 70~79, 80~100 I believe), 'special drops' (one to three per monster, of which drops and rates do not very over levels; Enemy Parts are among these), Meseta, and Area Drops (all other drops, all dependent only on the area (NOT mission) and mission level). Boxes have 'fixed drops', 'boss drops' (two different possible sets for each Mission that has a boss at each difficulty from C to S), and finally the 'area drops' again (although from what I've read, red boxes give rarer drops more commonly, botanical boxes Woods and stuff, etc.). The Perfect Bible pretty much lists the drops, although it shows no info on rates. - Tycho 17:04, 1 December 2006 (PST)

• To anyone that would like to know about the new drop system but doesn't have the Bible guide, here's an excerpt from a chat I had with Ryna. Yeah, I do realize I raped page width! >_>; - Tycho 02:34, 3 December 2006 (PST)

Ryna: So, a guaranteed grind can still fail?
Tycho: Actually, the 'guaranteed' part was an incorrect translation from the start.
Ryna: That's certainly misleading.
Tycho: Yes, it is.
Tycho: Most people probably already know though; there have been several complaints about it already.
Ryna: It looks like I get to slightly revise the drop system too.
Tycho: Pretty much.
Tycho: The thing is, one cannot normally see whether a drop is a 'rare' one, a 'special' one or an 'area drop'.
Tycho: The only reasonable way to make a basis would be to get those distinctions out of the way I guess.
Ryna: How do the area drops work?
Ryna: Are they common to a specific mission?
Tycho: .. Actually, I could do that, even if copying the whole thing would be a bit much for me currently.
Tycho: No, they are not.
Tycho: They're tied to areas rather than Missions; for example, all Missions that would say 'Raffon Fields' (hope I'm not off on that one) in the Mission description would use the drop set for that particular area, not quite unlike the way the common drops were split up in PSO. There are 13 such areas.
Ryna: It'd be useful to obtain a list of common drop areas
Tycho: I'll look up some stuff.
Tycho: You use logs?
Ryna: Kubara Wood? No, I haven't had a chance to use it yet
Ryna: (that was a joke)
Tycho: >_>;
Ryna: Sorry, I've been playing with the Frenchman too much
Ryna: I write down any interesting information
Tycho: Ah, the drop rates for 'special' and 'rare' drops are influenced by monster levels, while the other two are not (no clue what it depends on how often area/meseta drops appear..).
Ryna: Other 2 = Box Drops and Area Drops?
Tycho: Area drops and Meseta drops.
Tycho: Meseta amounts are influenced by moster type/level.
Tycho: Area drops for boxes are dependent on the level (of the mission/instance and thus its monsters), like for monsters.
Ryna: So C-Rank Unsafe Passage has different area drops than B-Rank?
Ryna: For Area Drops, can anything drop them?
Tycho: Yes.
Tycho: And the fact that the drops are different is caused only by their level difference.
Tycho: Box types with associated item kinds that drop more often: tank containers (round blue/grey standard ones): healing items, photons, metals; rare containers (red ones): drop rarer items more easiler; boss containers (duh): 'drop rares more easily', which might or might not only refer to their custom drop sets; bushes/crystal (duh): drop woods more often.
Tycho: There is something peculiar about these levels.
Ryna: Do "Boss boxes" appear after a miniboss?
Tycho: For monsters the last drop category is 'level 80~99', although for the area drops it lists them including '50~100' ones, and even includes 'L100 only' ones (Agito Replica and Psycho Wand).
Tycho: If you're referring to SEED Vance, I believe so.
Tycho: Oh.
Ryna: or that thing at the end of Rainbow Warrior
Tycho: Actually it only lists them for Di Ragan, Onmagoug, Agahna Degahna and 'Dimagoras'.
Ryna: Dimmagolus
Ryna: It is rather interesting they don't include De Ragnus or Dulk Faxxis
Tycho: Ignoring L1 and L100, the area drops all seem to start at x0 and end at x9 (where 'x' is a digit indicating the tens), and among these the chart mentions the numbers 1, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 59, 60, 69, 70, 79, 99, 100, but not 89 or 90, while '80~99' was a single category for monsters -- it seems plausible to conclude from this information that the area drops and rare drops not only share their level categories, but also that 100 would be of a different category than 99, implying that the levels might go on even beyond 100.
Tycho: Indeed. Incomplete, I guess.
Tycho: Items sets grant the respective items either +25% to their stats on ATP, ATA and DFP (melee/ranged weapon + shieldline), or on TP, DFP and MST (casting weapon + shieldline).
Ryna: All right
Tycho: The different 'Areas' are as follows (I do not know their spelling in English, but any other PSU player might): Linear Line, Powerplant, HIVE, Lake, Meadow, Cargo Train, Autumn Foliage, Archipelago, Temple, Mine, Valley, Desert, Relics.
Ryna: In regards to the previous comment you made about area drops, is that level number you mention tied to either the level requirement or suggestion monster levels for the area?
Tycho: The monster level.
Tycho: Otherwise, a lot of C Missions would all have 'level 1' or something due to the lack of participation restrictions.
Tycho: Oh, by the way.
Tycho: Similarly to in PSO, variable ATP still exists.
Ryna: I get the impression that variable TP exists too
Ryna: I notice my technics do a range of damage
Tycho: Well, in the Pokemon RPGs it's like that too, but there it was added only during the damage calculations, and did not depend on the attacks.
Ryna: So let me try to summarize all of this.
Ryna: Special drops are common to an enemy, regardless of its level
Ryna: There are upwards of 3 rare drops per enemy, but those drops will vary depending on the monster's level
Ryna: There are two variations on box drops, regular and boss
Ryna: The items that are found in them will be "Area Drops"
Ryna: Area drops will change depending on suggested level of the monsters in the area
Ryna: Correct me if I am wrong
Tycho: It's the 'special drops' of which there are only three slots per monster at most; for the 'rare drops' there is one possible slot for each category of levels (1-10, 80-99 and ten at a time for everything in between).
Tycho: As for the boxes, I do not think they could necessarily be split up like that; from what I've read, it's more like that the ones after boxes just get an additional 'rare check' from a special set of drops . I might very well be mistaken, but since the page gives two 'patterns' with each eight spaces for special drops (not necessarily all filled) for each of the mentioned missions at each of the difficulties, perhaps the game either spits out all content of one pattern (with the gaps filled up with content determined by the rules for 'regular boxes'), or that of another pattern (really needs testing since this seems improbable).
Ryna: Does the guide list all the common drops for each area?
Tycho: It seems to be pretty much comprehensive for the time being, yes.
Ryna: Does it include other areas such as HIVE?
Tycho: I've mentioned HIVE in the list of Areas I think; it does mention it.
Ryna: Yeah, you did
Ryna: I was just wondering if it listed items for that area
Tycho: Let me list the 'special drops':
Vahra Nail (Vahra, Go Vahra), Vanda Deruma (Vanda, Vanda Mera), Ollaka Meat (Ollaka), Goldania (Orugudasu), Gaozoran Rod (Gaozoran), Caligain Blade (Caligain), Grina Beat S (Grina Beat S), [B] Vahra Claw (Go Vahra), Inverter Circuit (Gohma Dira, Gohma Mesuna, Bysha Kou-21, Bysha Otsu-32, YG-01 U BUGGES), Kortoba Liver (Kortoba), Kortoba Milk (Kortoba), Jao Deruma (Jaggo), Meow Moustache (Jaggo), Svaltus Edge (Orugudasu, Svaltus, Rutasu Jigga), Zoona Muscle (Zoona), Unknown Meat (Sendillan), Copernia (Dahberan), Orpahdo (Dahberan), Black Heart (Dahberan), Derjaban Blade (Derjaban), [B] Derjabanah (Derjaban), [B] Derjagunas (Derjaban), Tengogh Aura (Tengogh), Dogma Drop (Do Vol, No Vol, Hiru Vol), Pannon Jelly (Pannon, Bel Pannon), Altim Cream (Pannon, Bel Pannon), Bil de Vear Horn (Bil de Vear), Buru Buna Rangu (Buru Buna), Rappy Feather (Rappy, Rappy Latan), Cursed Pumpkin (Rappy Latan), Rapucha Shieru (Rapucha), Goldania (Rutasu Jigga). 80% of these names is probably off; I'd really need some sort of translation guide for this kind of stuff.
Ryna: Go Vahra?
Tycho: From level 50 on (S-rank missions), Vahra turns into that.
Tycho: Here's a quick list of the area drops, to make sure these won't get confused with rare drops either:
Ryna: My messaging client just crashed on me and I didn't have the chance to save the log. =/
Tycho: I'll send it in a bit.
Tycho: - All Photons
- All released Ores (up to the Neptune one, which is 12*)
- Scape Doll
- All Boosters
- Sol/Cosmo Atomizers
- Copernia, Goldania, Moripinia, Titania, Olpad, Rubinad, Shitoriido, Tormad, Berirad, Diad
- Grinder Bases
- Relic Edge
- Boards for Crea Doubles, Twin Crea Dagger, Crea Dagger, Agito Replica, Agito Edge, Twin Crea S, Crea Saber, Crea Sword, Crea Naazashi, Ryou-crea-zashi, Crea Sabera, Twin Crea Sabera, Crea Soruudo, Soda Crea, Arseba Cressa, Seba Cressa, Ardaga Cressa, Daga Cressa, Psycho Wand. It's also explicitly mentioned the only way to obtain Crea weapons is by getting their Boards through these 'area drops'.